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Tuesday, April 12th 2005

8:56 PM

Has Affirmative Action become Reverse discrimination?

Hi All:

Food for thought on this Tuesday evening.  I was reading though and old copy of Time Magazine today when I came across one of those little statiscal FACTOID boxes they use which was giving us as readers statistics on the average salaries of college educated women in America.  The findings were very interesting, yet disturbing.  The study showed that Asian American college educated women make and average of $43,000 a year, while college educated African American women make and average of about $41,000 a year.  Meanwhile, college educated white (WASP) women bring home and average of only $37,000 a year.

I am wondering here, what the cause of such a drastic salary differenc is?  In being politically correct, in trying not to be accused of being prejudiced, has Corporate America merely traded in one prejudice, one societal disparity for another, with white women caught in the cross fire as it were?

206 Shared thoughts and sentiments..

Posted by Libraluvz:

Hey, I have an opinion here. I personally don't buy the argument of reverse discrimination. I don't believe that affirmative action has set anything in place where white people are actively and sytematically discriminated against.

Most of the rhetoric quotes some statistic or figure, which then leaps to the conclusion that somehow jobs and/or money are just being handed out to undeserving minorities [Aside: This argument sounds remarkably similar to the arguments about undeserving minorities soaking up all of the welfare funds. Can both cases actually be true? I guess these guys haven't gotten the memo that if they get their resume together, Corporate America is just handing out jobs. But wait, why get a job when free money is being handed out ].

How does anyone ever know for sure that *whatever* minority in *whatever* position didn't get there because they were a qualified candidate? Do employers let White people in on some secret after each interview ("Well, I would hire you, but there's this quota we've got to fill so we've got to find some minorities for this position. Sorry. Better luck next time.")? Nope, there's always the assumption that affirmative action is the culprit in *every* case without any actual compelling evidence (OK, not every case, but most of them).

As far as the figures presented in the Time article (I haven't seen the actual article -- was it actually a piece on reverse discrimination?), I suppose affirmative action is all good as long as someone White is at the top of the totem pole, right? I personally believe (and feel free to disagree) that reverse discrimination arguments flirt around the issue of white privilege, without ever actually acknowledging it as a real issue. As long as the totem pole reads White male, White female, with minorities somewhere below, it's all good and folks aren't up in arms about the issue. I also guess that the article didn't present facts and figures about White men's sal
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 8:36 AM

Posted by Libraluvz:

Dang, where is the rest of my response? lol. I'm gonna try this again.
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 8:38 AM

Posted by Libraluvz:

Hey, I have an opinion here. I personally don't buy the argument of reverse discrimination. I don't believe that affirmative action has set anything in place where white people are actively and sytematically discriminated against.

Most of the rhetoric quotes some statistic or figure, which then leaps to the conclusion that somehow jobs and/or money are just being handed out to undeserving minorities [Aside: This argument sounds remarkably similar to the arguments about undeserving minorities soaking up all of the welfare funds. Can both cases actually be true? I guess these guys haven't gotten the memo that if they get their resume together, Corporate America is just handing out jobs. But wait, why get a job when free money is being handed out ].

How does anyone ever know for sure that *whatever* minority in *whatever* position didn't get there because they were a qualified candidate? Do employers let White people in on some secret after each interview ("Well, I would hire you, but there's this quota we've got to fill so we've got to find some minorities for this position. Sorry. Better luck next time.")? Nope, there's always the assumption that affirmative action is the culprit in *every* case without any actual compelling evidence (OK, not every case, but most of them).

As far as the figures presented in the Time article (I haven't seen the actual article -- was it actually a piece on reverse discrimination?), I suppose affirmative action is all good as long as someone White is at the top of the totem pole, right? I personally believe (and feel free to disagree) that reverse discrimination arguments flirt around the issue of white privilege, without ever actually acknowledging it as a real issue. As long as the totem pole reads White male, White female, with minorities somewhere below, it's all good and folks aren't up in arms about the issue. I also guess that the article didn't present facts and figures about White men's sal
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 8:38 AM

Posted by Libraluvz:

Ooops, I guess my post was too long. lol. Here's the continuation of my comments....
As long as the totem pole reads White male, White female, with minorities somewhere below, it's all good and folks aren't up in arms about the issue. I also guess that the article didn't present facts and figures about White men's salaries because, no doubt, they are still at the top of the totem pole when looking at the issue.

Last time I checked, minorities still make up a small percentage of Corporate America. Also last time I checked, White women were actually said to benefit the most from affirmative action.

Reverse discrimination arguments set it up where someone White is automatically believed to somehow deserve whatever position. It can never be the case that someone of whatever minority group actually deserves whatever position. Somehow affirmative action is always painted out to be the culprit.

Personally, I think reverse discrimination arguments are insulting. I can't speak for Asian women, but I also know that the latest statistics quote Black women as putting in the hard work and effort to get the degrees needed for these Corporate jobs, such that Black women are graduating from college (bachelor's level) at unprecedented levels. Some of these women (such as myself) will go on to pursue even higher degrees. The hard work *is* actually going into making the wages that are quoted in the article, making these women highly competitive for these positions, and not just a byproduct of reverse discrimination

IMO, what these arguments fail to look at is the big picture. At least as far as African Americans go, unemployment rates are still in epidemic proportions in comparison to other groups. If we were benefiting from affirmative action so much as to damage the quality of lives of White people, then I would expect to see the similar unemployment rates in other communities too, or at least a downward trend (which, last time I checked, is not the case). So I'm n
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 8:41 AM

Posted by Libraluvz:

One more time....
So I'm not buying reverse discrimination arguments until I see some compelling evidence.

To cap this off, let's review a few societal myths: (a) undeserving minorities are benefitting unproportionately from affirmative action (because they are too lazy to put in the actual work to get and/or advance in Corporate America); (b) undeserving minorities are largely unemployed (because they are lazy?); and (c) undeserving minorities are being supported by the welfare system (one guess -- because they are lazy!). It's funny much the blame game is being played against minorities. It's also remarkable that each of these arguments rely on the same stereotypes about minorities. (OK, granted not every argument presents minorities as lazy, though undeserving does seem like a fair assessment).

I have yet to see *anyone* journalist or otherwise bemoaning the effects of reverse discrimination, talk about how white privilege is an underlying assumption guiding this argument. Most of the time these arguments haggle over the hiring and/or college admissions of a handful of minorities. In the grand scheme of things, when minorities people make up a small percentage of Corporate America (and a smaller and smaller percentage as you go up the ranks), this cannot be as huge of an issue as to routinely and systematically discriminate and lower the quality of life of the entire majority!

Sorry, I'm just not buying into the existence of reverse discrimination. I think it is a fallacious argument.

I actually look forward to hearing some comments on my comments.
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 8:42 AM

Posted by wendy miller:

I don't believe that stat or the reverse racism bullshit, lets see that stat
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 9:50 AM

Posted by Dream Dragons News and Gazette:

Libra:

Personally, I'd like to SEE ALL PEOPLE TREATED EQAULLY AND FAIRLY, regardless of race, color, creed, or sexual persuasion. I support a womans right to choose, and do feel gays should have the same rights to fall in love and be married.

Reverse discrimination...fact of the matter is, it does EXIST, and not just where race is concerned. For instance, all veterans get exta points on a civil service examination, and often times, those extra points given to them are enough to get them a job they would not otherwise have gotten...is that fair? Not to the person who actually tested better, but got bumped out of a job. Is it fair that some race bonus gets someone into a college that is less qualified? I for one think not. There are business loans out there that only women and minorities qualify for, and one a personal note, there is a retraining program I wanted to take part in because of my arm...guess what, I cannot take part in it, because I am not a woman.

Years ago (early days of affirmative action) when I got out of the Navy, I went back home to Ohio, and applied for a union job working for International Harvestor. I happened to know the personnel manager, having grown up in the area. I WAS TOLD, as a friend that he could not hire me, because the government had told them they had to hire minorities.

I do not like, nor endorse preferential treatment or hiring practices of any type here. I believe that the best woman or man should be hired for the job, and that their should be equal pay for equal work. Yet, I do know that their is preferential treatment, and in numerous ways. How many of us have seen nepotism at play in the work place? I pay taxes....tell me, is it fair that our government has a business loan program that only immigrants qualify for? I am a male survivor of childhood abuse, is it fair to me that there are far more subsidized help programs out there for woman survivors then for men?

Every year on various colleges and univer
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 10:31 AM

Posted by Libraluvz:

I'm still not convinced that affirmative action is making the kind of epic negative impact that some arguments claim. If so, then I wanna see some actual stats. I wanna see these dramatic increases in wealth and power for minorities, unemployment, and dramatic societal whole-scale decrease in wealth and power, unemployment for Whites. The statistics just don't support that kind of argument at all. There is no way that affirmative action adds up to the sheer devastation of reverse racism that folks are claiming. There is no way.

These "reverse racism" claims have been here for years and years. Claims of minorities stealing "White men's jobs" have been around since the beginning of America. This is the same type of argument with no real substantial basis. I'm sorry.

As an overall commentary, why are any gains for minorities (which overall is severely needed) always portrayed as taking something away from Whites? This is the exact commentary on White privilege that I am trying to get to the heart of. I would really like to see someone address that fact.
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 1:11 PM

Posted by Libraluvz:

As for the example about subsidized programs for childhood abuse for male victims, this is like comparing apples and oranges. I'm in psychology so I know that males victims of abuse are a lot less likely to speak out and seek out support, which results in the skewed distribution of services. There are organization that would love for male survivors to come forward, but the numbers aren't there. Even still, there are programs that specifically address that issue BECAUSE it is an underrepresented population in need of services.

It is not due to any kind of preferential treatment.

Apples and oranges, not the same.
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 1:14 PM

Posted by Libraluvz:

Even still, Dream Dragon, I beg to differ. All of your examples talk about individualized case-by-case examples that *may* or *may not* actually occur though the *possibility* exists at one time or another. We don't know the frequency of occurrence. Even still I would argue that it does not occur to the extent of systematically discriminating against Whites and massively having a negative impact on the Whites. Once again, the stats still don't speak to this massive "unfairness." They don't. Even still -- what? -- we're crying massive levels of reverse racism over whatever % of jobs that minorities have in Corporate America? The *maybe* 10-15% of minority populations on college campuses? One or two seats in a class of 30 in law school at one school in America? Come on now! What's the alternative? I admit that the system is flawed in some instances. No system is gonna be equitable to all people. That's a fact. As long as White folks are getting all of their top picks in jobs and universities, it's all good, right? I guess since we're all PC now everything is on an equal playing feel. No way. For every stat that talks about reverse discrimination (whether or not that is truly what is going on or what folks are telling themselves that it is), I can quote more stats that speak to the pervasive effects of racism and discrimination in America (whether overt as in past days or more covert as we operate under the shield of PC). What is the answer then?
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 1:40 PM

Posted by Dream Dragons News and Gazette:

Libra:

Like it or not, if for instance a law school has a representative number of any race that responds to the percentage of the race equal too their percentage in the overall population, then those numbers would be correct.

You may not wish to admit it, but it is NOT right for one person to be denied a job because another person less qualified takes thier plac do to some special priviledge based upon their race, color, or sexual orientation...EQUAL RIGHTS are not preferential rights. Lets ALL COMPETE on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. If any one is better than me for a particular job, they should get it, but they should not get it because they get a ONUS for fitting into a special class of people.
Sunday, April 17th 2005 @ 8:42 PM

Posted by Dream Dragons News and Gazette:

Libra:

You are naive...I worked for a crisis intervention center...we had PLACES to send abused women, could give them a place to live in transition...there were no centers for men, most of our funding was spent, so the best we could do for men being abused, was a night or two in a hotel....that's not BOOK LEARNING, that's in the trenches reality.
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